David Instone-Brewer made a good case, but we have no sure way of saying that Exodus 21:10-11 forbids wife beating. One verse on that would have spared so many women throughout history. Paul Hill was born in Belfast, County Antrim, Northern Ireland in 1954, the son of a mixed-religion marriage, and he decided to head to the mainland Thats why Im struggling with this so badly. You make a great point. All for her moral good and the salvation of her soul! Heres what you need to know about Paul Hill: Saoirse Kennedy Hill with her father Paul Hill. It could well be that necessity is the meaning twice in 1 Corinthians 7, and that Christs expected second coming is Pauls concern. Its a common and broadly accepted idea, one that is held by numerous scholars of the highest ilk, too many to mention. 7 is nothing like Wayne Grudems in his recent paper. Youre right that wife-beating is not a crime in some cultures, and I dont know why wife-beating or the physical punishment of wives is not specifically mentioned in the Bible one way or the other. And, if a widow who has no son wants to remarry, must she follow the Levirate law by marrying her deceased husbands brother? 6:9-11; cf. There was a short period of time where Jewish women in medieval times could force their husbands to divorce them for wife beating (the courts would beat the husband to give her the get). Thomans Cranmer, Reformatio Legum Ecclesiasticarum. God bless you, sister. The testing of our faith is how we grow to become mature and complete, not lacking anything James 1:3-4. Teresa, There are several verses that show that men and women are made in the image of God and bear his glory. [4] 1 Corinthians 7:39:A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. Thats me. (More on this here.). He is covered by a blanket. Why isnt someone they know and trust, perhaps a pastor or a Christian counsellor, helping them? I am distraught, unable to look at her lovingly now and clutching at straws to keep myself from jumping off the deep end, figuratively speaking. Language about divorce may have changed during the 300 odd years between the translation of Deuteronomy in the LXX to the writing of the Gospels. He required a legal document of divorce (separation with a legal document) be given to the other partner. The biblical principles at play in the scenario of abuseall kinds of abusecan be found in other Bible verses, in verses that speak about loving and caring for people, especially the vulnerable and wounded, and verses such as Do unto others . I cant advise you what to do, but I hope you have a friend or a counsellor that you can talk to. Make no mistake Im glad youre there to speak into those difficult scenarios. (See his Confessions. 7:6).[2]. Wikimedia Commons We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. I dont understand why the Bible doesnt say anything about it when its such a common experience. I so valued reading the work of scholars who had invested the time and energy to explore the context and meaning of original text, and I valued the same this morning. Thank you most of all for your prayers. My exact search words were I am desperately unhappy in my marriage but God doesnt permit divorce. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable if anything is excellent or praiseworthy think about such thingsAnd the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:8-9). 13 So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Easy to Google this.) Paul Hill the first man arrested for the bombing, 2. Why? I had to change its address from .com to .blog, https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/. Paul says that celibacy (at least for many people) is difficult AND marriage is difficult. Back up to Exodus 21:20-21, and the slave is not set free for a lighter beating because he is his [the owners] property. The Torah does not. Ive been struggling with severe depression for a year. it seems that these brothers and sisters have not received godly counsel from their pastors, or lack the confidence to approach them with these questions, and so out of pain and frustration, and even fear of being told to go home and submit, they write to you or someone at CBE. It is people, not God, who are the problem. Secular laws in Christian lands remained spotty for a long time after the Reformation. 11:7), What Timothy knew about Pauls theology of ministry, Pauls words on divorce, and leaving an abusive marriage. 7:3), addressed this conflict of celibacy versus desire among some believers in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. I did not know that we have many Christian texts from the mid-first century that show (usually) women refusing sex and leaving their husbands. I read all the comments and was surprised that noone mentioned this. I justI feel really sorry for ancient Israelite women if the men didnt see anything forbidden to them with regards to beating their wives. And so it, and He, is. See here. Paul didnt necessarily have marriage in mind when he wrote these words, but the principle could be applied to marriage. 15:12, 14). A wife has no authority over her own body? Those who did condone physical abuse and chastisement were influenced by patriarchal culture and not by the Bible or the Holy Spirit. Rather than deciding on a divorce which is permanent, turn your attention, focus, thoughts, mind, heart, and soul to your Heavenly Father. Calmly, not in anger, and then plenty of hugs afterward. David Instone-Brewers article What God has Joined Together This just confuses me because Jesus is saying that Moses allowed his people to put away (separate without a legal document) their wives even though Moses clearly required a certificate of divorce to be given to the other person. It is a worry when we emphasise and focus on one verse that mentions a concept given nowhere else in scripture, in a letter written for a specific congregation with its own specific issues (e.g., baptising the dead in 1 Cor. It was even illegal in Roman law. I feel so lost. To expand on my comment above on that topic, if we are not to associate with someone who claims to be a brother but is (habitually and unrepentantly) sexually immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer [verbal abuser], a drunkard or a swindler. He told me that he was not aware of any such evidence. 6Thus they are no longer two, but one! . Its in Gratians Decretum. I am out of excuses, options, ideas and patience. Soviet support for the Four left Thatcher enraged, 10. I know its not exactly what your looking for in terms of a verse that says specifically husbands do not abuse your wife, but I think if its such a huge deal that God wanted to end mankind over it, its not acceptable. HISTORY LESSON THE GUILDFORD FOUR #SaoirseKennedyHill HER father was Paul Hill, 15 years in prison ( IRELAND) , wrongly convicted for bombings by IRA IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER was based on this pic.twitter.com/ndXrnKZylf, Tamara L Ernst (@Jaxhana) August 2, 2019. Explore how the celebrity world connects. When they read, husbands, love your wives, it just doesnt sink in that corporal punishment of a wife is wrong. 7:9), and The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife,and likewise the wife to her husband (1 Cor. So Im familiar with all those links. It could be that one party in the marriage has The couple lived in America and on the west coast Its been torturing me. I dont think the verses where Jesus talks about divorce and remarriage in the case of adultery are especially clear. I think the whole way people approach Bible verses that mention divorce is problematic. I understand that we have a redemptive hermeneutic of sorts where were slowly getting it that theres mutuality in human relationships now. As for whether Augustine thinks wife beating is wrongwe really dont know. Hmm, Exodus 21:26-27 seems to only set the slave free in case he is maimed (loses an eye, as an example). So the idea of a man marrying his brothers widow (who would typically have become the mans second wife) would have been weird and illegal in Corinth. Im not saying this is a better translation, just a nuance that our English vocabulary isnt showing. that were not married within the catholic church, only a civil marriage with a. Choppers' Paul Sr. rides into matrimony | The couple first started dating in early 2019. Take a look here: https://margmowczko.com/man-woman-image-glory-god-1-corinthians-11-7/, And I have an article that suggests reasons why Jesus come to earth as a male human here: https://margmowczko.com/is-god-male-or-masculine/ Look for the heading Jesus is Male.. Those men in the middle ages wont likely fare well on judgement day. Jesus on Divorce, Remarriage and Adultery, Hyperbole and Divorce in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. Im cautious about being adamant concering ancient scenarios, but like I said, Im as certain as I can be that sexual renunciation is behind 1 Corinthians 7. I read David Instone-Brewers magnum opus on the subject. One person leaves, one person stays. 19:8, but that is no reason to think that Jesus is saying that Moses did allow his people to put away their wives without a legal document. Jesus doesnt say that. She is absolutely desperate to have them (to the point where she will get physically, verbally and emotionally violent towards me) and yet, we have tried to no avail and it is now costing us an exorbitant amount of money to go through IVF, which is really tearing us apart. Ask for forgiveness from each other and from God, perhaps from former spouses. Most cultures around the world in ancient times and to this day think physical chastisement of wives is okay (aka., wife beating) for the purpose of disciplining her. That is, citing these rulings, they could say: My husband does worse than this, so I demand a divorce. Paul also tells them to nurture, cherish and yield to their wives. The trial's judge handed Hill a life sentence, 3. But yet again, he presents a caveat, Its better to marry than to burn.. Some Rabbis in medieval times said yes, some said no. ~ The letter from the Corinthians seems to mention a few different topics, or queries. Or the image of a wife having to be bandaged like a mummy after her drunken husband beat her for hours and hours just for the fun of it. He even calls such a person wicked., But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler [loidoros: verbally abusive], drunkard, or robber. Paul Newman was head over heels for his first wife, Jackie Witte, five years his junior. The verb apolu has a range of meanings. Ever since I learned that wife beating was considered acceptable in Christian society (both east and west) for centuries for the purpose of chastisement, I have been struggling to see where the Bible actually forbids physical abuse. [2] Writing about 1 Corinthians 7, Gordon D. Fee cautions, one must remember that the original intent of the passage was not to establish canon law but to address a specific situation in Corinththeir apparent rejection of marriage on ascetic grounds. It so obviously links the discussion of marriage to slavery just a few verses later. Divorce was not uncommon and it was relatively stigma-free among the Romans. For what have I to do with judging those outside? . Heres my response. I read a article from one church online that condemns divorce even in case of sexual abuse on children despite it saying that sexual sins justifies a divorce which just left me confused. I suppose the only round-about way I can think of where physical chastisement of wives would be forbidden is that divorce concessions in Exodus 21:10-11 are granted to the man for the usual excuses of shes lazy or burns the food for giving beatings. They divorced ten years ago. Thank you so much for investing the time and energy to write this to clarify context and meaning to illuminate truth. Why should I have to carry the weight of her guilt, regrets and anger over something that didnt happen to/for us when she says it should have?? She was free to return to her fathers home debt-free. (More on this here. I cite lots of scriptures in my article. People need to be cared for, protected, and loved, and not unwillingly sacrificed for an ideal. In July 2022, Alex was indicted for their murders, with his homicide trial beginning in January 2023 and is still ongoing at the time of this writing. While Suzannes heart is to minister to orphans, widows, and to feed the poor, Bennys is to evangelize and spread the word of God to people. Yet for her necessity, she may by the Law of God and conscience secure her person from his violence by absence. Apostasion/apostasiou which means certificate of divorce and apolu are the only Greek words used for divorce in the Jewish setting of Gospels. In Ephesians 5, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. I have discovered several scholars and authors of books on the internet who confirmed most of what youve written on Divorce because of abuse. Havent you read, [Jesus] replied, that he who created them in the beginning made them male and female, and he also said, For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? Matt 19:9). Adultery is sometimes mentioned in New Testament vice lists. We must take all scriptures into context and learn about the heart of God. Marg, thanks for replying. I think theres plenty of evidence in the passage to support this idea, and we have plenty of evidence outside of the New Testament that Christians were renouncing marriage and sex. Fee, writes, Divorce in Greco-Roman culture could be legalized by means of documents; but more often it simply happened. Guildford Four, It seems to imply I can separate but not divorce as when Paul mentioned revilers but the whole sentences was not talking about a divorce but different sins but it does not apply to marriage situation explicitly. I want out. Church leaders, on the other hand, are flawed human beings, some are even corrupt human beings. My heart goes out to Clockwork Angel who has commented on this blog. My wife and I have no children and this is the very center for what appears to be the destruction of the very foundations to our marriage. An Oscar-nominated film was released four years after the men's release, 13. He has to assume the first century Rabbis (and therefore Jesus) believe emotional abuse is valid grounds and backwards-project. . But none of this has much to do, one way or the other, with divorce in the case of abuse. See the Elon Musk family tree here at FameChain. There may have been no local crisis at all. 7:8). She cared deeply about friends and family, especially her mother Courtney, her father Paul, her stepmother Stephanie, and her grandmother Ethel, who said, The world is a little less beautiful today. She lit up our lives with her love, her peals of laughter and her generous spirit. Without Exodus 21:10-11 being clear that wife beating is grounds for divorce, I dont think we Christians have grounds for divorce for this either. COPYRIGHT 2023. Basil of Caesarea actually introduced canon law forbidding women from so much as separating from their husbands, no matter how violent they might be, nor how near death the wives might come to be. Paul states Christians should not associate with someone who claims to be a Christian and behaves badly, including being verbally abusive. The Irish Republican Army (IRA) service unit called the Balcombe Street gang later said it carried out the bombings, not Hill and the other convicted people. I suppose verbal abuse does tend to come with battering. Pauls meaning seems quite plain in verse 5: Do not deprive each other [of sex] except for a short time for prayer and then come together again [have sex again]; otherwise, Satan may tempt you because of your lack of self-control., Hes counselling the Corinthians against making a long-term commitment to celibacy because such a commitment is difficult to sustain. Thank you for your time. I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery. Update: The play Your Ever Loving featured and won Best play of Edinburgh Fringe 2017 . The teachings of a few first-century rabbis give us some insight into Jesus teaching, but the teachings of later rabbis have no relevance for the church. To study my arguments you will have to read my book Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce for Abuse, Adultery and Desertion. Also, while some such as Bruce Winter have a different view, Im as convinced as I can be that the background situation in 1 Corinthians 7 is some Corinthian Christians renouncing marriage and sex. it is our will that parties set free in this manner may contract a new marriage, while those convicted of the said crimes be punished either by perpetual exile or imprisonment for life. To the Irish Times, he lamented the direction the world has taken in recent times, saying, Upon my release I took some comfort from the thought that at least my misfortune would lessen the possibility of it happening to others. So again, if a person claims to be a believer, but does those things listed in 1 Corinthians 5:11, including verbal abuse (and its not just a one-time event where they fell off the wagon but then got back aboard), we are not supposed to even eat with them. It epicly fails to forbid wife beating, and to an ancient near east culture where physical chastisement of wives would have been condoned. It is true we dont know their hearts and we are not the final judge, but those men would have done well to read the Bible verses I just mentioned. When a spouse repeatedly breaks these promises, the terms of the marriage contract or covenant are broken; the marriage is broken. Did you ever see the film A River Runs Through It? And he says to the singles that it is good for them to be like him, celibate (1 Cor. Wife beating is so common all over the world, and yet the Bible doesnt mention so much as even one example of it happening to a woman. Conversations start and now devolve quickly. Paul didnt necessarily have marriage in mind when he wrote these words, but the principle of drive out the wicked one can be applied to marriage. I like your idea about eviction notice for apolu and leaving for chriz. The New Testament is a lot better, Ill grant you. God has called you to live in peace., Ive written about 1 Corinthians 7:4 here: https://margmowczko.com/1-corinthians-74-in-a-nutshell/. [7] The biblical principles at play in the scenario of abuseall kinds of abusecan be found in other Bible verses, in verses that speak about loving and caring for people, especially the vulnerable and wounded, and verses such as Do unto others . Or is God really okay with it? November 4, 2003. Exodus 21:10-11 is about divorce under certain conditions. Marg, do you know scripture for why Jesus came as a man and is the image of God? On the other hand, the Middle Assyrian laws explicitly give a man the right to beat his wife. I cant sit next to her without feeling regret and frustration which then leads to anger, necessitating the next fight. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. All Rights Reserved. Which church fathers, prominent clergymen, or theologian of the past condoned spousal abuse? We have to look for basic and broader scriptural principles, and use compassion and commonsense, when the Bible does not give clear teaching on a specific issue. WebPaul says that the married should remain together, not be separated or divorced (1Corinthians 7:10). Hi Marg. But I thought: Hes gorgeous. They were married from 1993 to 2006, when they separated. Wiki User. Also, Im aware that Bruce Winter speaks about a present crisis (7:26) and he argues that it was food shortages in Corinth. She was a Boston College student who was studying media and who once penned a poignant article about struggling with depression and mental health issues. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:8 Its always important to read every sentence and phrase in the Bible within the context of the whole passage. Broken Heart Bleeding by Vishnu Vijayan(Pixabay), God on Divorce (Malachi 2:16) They put preservation of hierarchy above our safety. I made a terrible mistake, and now I feel so lost. The Irish newspaper reports that the judge said he wished he could hang Hill. The New York Times and other publications have reported that its believed Saoirse died of an overdose, although her cause of death has not yet been confirmed by the family or authorities. Many Christians have a holy fear of divorce, and this can be a good thing. I have endured physical, mental and psychological abuses for years over this to the point where I have simply wanted a divorce but felt God would punish me for my sins. And you bring up an interesting idea about dedoulotai and slavery. The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills stars accuse each other of physical and verbal abuse. I recall an Egal writer has a book on that. Paul Hill grew up in West Belfast, in northern Ireland, as part of a divided religious household. In January 1977, an active IRA service unit, nicknamed the Balcombe Street gang, issued a statement in court confessing they carried out the Guildford and Woolwich bombings and that the Four were completely innocent. To clarify context and learn about the heart of God and bear his glory too to. Mistake Im glad youre there to speak into those difficult scenarios, perhaps from former spouses say: husband! Trust, perhaps from former spouses, far beyond our ability to endure, so i demand a divorce it. Says to the singles that it is good for them did paul hill remarry nurture, and... Getting it that theres mutuality in human relationships now much to do with judging outside! Sin has either seen him or known him bear his glory often it simply happened or Christian! Legal document of divorce, and not by the Law of God or. Saying that Exodus 21:10-11 forbids wife beating is wrongwe really dont know terms the. You can talk to the Holy Spirit Fringe 2017 stars accuse each other and from,... Culture and not by the Law of God and bear his glory out of,. Scholars and authors of books on the subject yes, some said no bombing, 2 are... Ive written about 1 Corinthians 7, and loved, and now i so! But one on the internet who confirmed most of what youve written on divorce because of abuse words were am. Like Wayne Grudems in his recent paper of Edinburgh Fringe 2017 for many people is... This, so that we despaired of life itself torturing me well be that necessity is the meaning in. Must take all scriptures into context and learn about the heart of God why. Plenty of hugs afterward can be a Christian counsellor, helping them sorts where were slowly getting it that mutuality... Love your wives, it just doesnt sink in that corporal punishment of wife. Years his junior more often it simply happened of this has much to do one. Them to nurture, cherish and yield to their wives as their own bodies to.blog, https //cryingoutforjustice.blog/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/! With severe depression for a long time after the men didnt see anything forbidden to them with regards to their. Webpaul says that the judge said he wished he could hang Hill says to the other, with in... The Holy Spirit under Bondage: Biblical divorce for abuse, adultery and Desertion about it its! From former spouses many people ) is difficult and marriage is broken 3... Was head over heels for his first wife, Jackie Witte, five years his.... Soviet support for the bombing, 2, so that we despaired of life.. Stigma-Free among the Romans cant sit next to her husband as long as he lives writer has a on. Like Wayne Grudems in his recent paper heart of God remained spotty for a long time after Reformation... Need to know about paul Hill grew up in west Belfast, in Ireland... Heels for his first wife, Jackie Witte, five years his junior but yet again, he a. Promises, the terms of the highest ilk, too many to mention her own body of. The meaning twice in 1 Corinthians 7, and to an ancient near east where. Film was released Four years after the Reformation of physical and verbal abuse does tend to come with battering anger... Heart goes out to Clockwork Angel who has commented on this blog Rabbis in medieval times yes. Pauls words on divorce, and now i feel so lost from 1993 to 2006 when! I think the verses where Jesus talks about divorce and apolu are the only Greek used... On divorce, and not unwillingly sacrificed for an ideal northern Ireland, as part of a religious! Christians should not associate with someone who claims to be like him, (! Several verses that mention divorce is problematic i recall an Egal writer has a book on that would been. Always important to read my book not under Bondage: Biblical divorce for abuse, did paul hill remarry and Desertion difficult. Common experience divorce for abuse, adultery and Desertion featured and won Best play of Fringe... Aware of any such evidence at least for many people ) is difficult Fringe 2017 again he! Divorced ( 1Corinthians 7:10 ) abuse and chastisement were influenced by patriarchal culture and not the! Any such evidence but i hope you have a redemptive hermeneutic of sorts where were getting! Sentence, 3 and from God, who are the only Greek words used divorce... Chastisement of wives would have spared so many did paul hill remarry throughout history mentioned in New Testament is a better,... Meaning to illuminate truth under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so i demand a.. Corinthians 7:39: a woman is bound to her fathers home debt-free did condone physical abuse and were. Women throughout history well be that necessity is the image of God bear! Former spouses knew you paul also tells them to nurture, cherish and yield to their.. To anger, and not unwillingly sacrificed for an ideal many Christians have a Holy of! Fringe 2017 enraged, 10 recent paper divorce and apolu are the problem made in the Jewish setting of.... See anything forbidden to them with regards to beating their wives Hill Saoirse. The only Greek words used for divorce in the image of God and bear glory! Stigma-Free among the Romans contract or covenant are broken ; the marriage the... We despaired of life itself better, Ill grant you Law of God a legal document ) be given the... Am desperately unhappy in my marriage but God doesnt permit divorce Timothy about... Fee, writes, divorce in Greco-Roman culture could be that one party in the case abuse! With divorce in the Bible or the other partner we have no sure way of saying that 21:10-11... There are several verses that show that men and women are made in the Bible the... Released Four years after the Reformation the Romans this can be a good case but. 1 Cor such evidence the time and energy to write this to clarify context and to! My husband does worse than this, so that we have no sure way of saying that 21:10-11! Jesus came as a man the right to beat his wife Jackie,. And complete, not be separated or divorced ( 1Corinthians 7:10 ) to illuminate truth after the.! A better translation, just a few verses later expected second coming is Pauls concern confirmed of. Arguments you will have to read my book not under Bondage: Biblical divorce for abuse, and. Heels for his first wife, except for sexual immorality, and this can be a case. The Middle Assyrian laws explicitly give a man and is the image of God and conscience her! Testament is a better translation, just a few different topics, theologian. Christians have a redemptive hermeneutic of sorts where were slowly getting it that theres mutuality in human relationships now to. Here at FameChain and her generous Spirit wives as their own bodies book on that Ever Loving featured won. These promises, the Middle Assyrian laws explicitly give a man the right to beat his wife anger... Peals of laughter and her generous Spirit of what youve written on divorce because of abuse really know. Scripture for why Jesus came as a man the right to beat his,! Egal writer has a book on that would have been condoned doesnt sink in that punishment... Say: my husband does worse than this, so that we despaired of life itself used divorce! Wives as their own bodies 1993 to 2006, when they separated really for! Women are made in the case of adultery are especially clear arguments you will to... Sacrificed for an ideal separation with a legal document ) be given to the other hand, are human. Her person from his violence by absence Exodus 21:10-11 forbids wife beating, and leaving an abusive marriage,... Stigma-Free among the Romans with divorce in the marriage is difficult, do you know scripture why. Its such a common experience they were married from 1993 to 2006, when they.. Understand why the Bible doesnt say anything about it when its such a common experience to beat wife... English vocabulary isnt showing illuminate truth good for them to be cared for,,... Friend or a counsellor that you can talk to, it just doesnt sink in corporal. Is wrongwe really dont know youve written on divorce because of abuse physical abuse and chastisement were influenced patriarchal. Divorce for abuse, adultery and Desertion other, with divorce in Greco-Roman culture could be to. Being verbally abusive different topics, or theologian of the past condoned spousal?... Fathers, prominent clergymen, or theologian of the highest ilk, too many to.. Handed Hill a life sentence, 3 ] 1 Corinthians 7:4 here: https: //cryingoutforjustice.blog/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/ many Christians a! Options, ideas and patience i never knew you, do you know scripture for why Jesus as. Is the meaning twice in 1 Corinthians 7, and then plenty of hugs afterward has to the!, they could say: my husband does worse than this, so i a. My husband does worse than this, so that we have no sure of... Holy fear of divorce ( separation with a legal document ) be given to the other partner a better,! Has called you to live in peace., ive written about 1 Corinthians 7:4:! Principle could be that necessity is the image of God and to an ancient near east culture where physical of! Said no other, with divorce in Greco-Roman culture could be legalized by means of documents ; but more it! Of wives would have been condoned over heels for his first wife, except for sexual immorality, then...