The recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5. Amazon, Go to company page I just feel like doing some admin tasks, documentation, or w, Just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM. Take a closer look at what it takes! Product Manager. What do I need to do to get into product management? Would you recommend. Most companies also dont know how to hire or evaluate good PMs. You can code all you want, but the fact of the matter is, most developers don't know where their own asshole is when it comes to business - I've seen it first hand. 4. As a manager, you spend your days solving people problems, not technical problems. I'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread. Balanced soul in dichotomy or rather, a conflicted soul caught between two worlds. How are you managing this? A product manager is the person who identifies the customer need and the larger business objectives that a product or feature will fulfill, articulates what success looks like for a product, and rallies a team to turn that vision into a reality. Technical gaps vs. product gaps He studied computer science at CU Boulder and has worked in customer success, as a software engineer, and as an engineering manager before moving into product management. Analytical questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain metric decreased by some percentage. business area. I'm talking about TAS (transaction advisory, i.e. Looking for a referral, If you left Amazon as an L6 Product Manager (Sr PM/PMT) for better culture/WLB and less stress, where did you go? If you have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the technical direction. You can always transition between the two roles later. All Rights Reserved. How do you actually know if you qualify to become an EM/ SDM at a tech company ? What should be my next rest and vest company? Or had led well-known products previously. Experience Seeker. Its ok to spend time exploring and discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day. Ask your friends in commercial banking about how well their clients live - better than most MDs. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. Is this true? #fint, Seeing a couple of my former colleagues now making 60+ lakhs per annum as senior or principal product managers at Amazon Hyderabad and elsewhere Has the Indian market gotten so good for product management? Using the product backlog and sprint backlog as a guide, the product manager leads the development team to execute on the product roadmap and create value for the user. Only instead of dramatic monologues and hostile families, you have fractured and frustrated teams. You lead the cross-functional product team and determine the future of the product. Eng, Go to company page You identify blockers to success and do anything to keep the ship from sinking. People can't handle that they made the wrong career choice. Facebook has something like that, you can skip MBA part, join as a junior PM. Also which career p. #pm #product #productmanager ##, I have 7+ years of product management experience and my last role was a Group Pm. DM if interested in knowing more!! Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. If youre undecided, pick the job that would make you happier, which in turn motivates you to bring your best self to work everyday and accelerate your rate of learning. So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. Engineering is the technical team of developers and managers who write the code and create the front end, so the clearer the guidance they get upfront, the better. Two houses, both alike in dignity. At times the relationship between product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. Management Consultant. 300+ video lessons across 6 modeling courses taught by elite practitioners at the top investment banks and private equity funds -- Excel Modeling -- Financial Statement Modeling -- M&A Modeling -- LBO Modeling -- DCF and Valuation Modeling -- ALL INCLUDED + 2 Huge Bonuses. I've been a TPM for 8 years now and wanna transition to Product Manager. I'm considering moving to product management. will PMs be affected? I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. Find out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO. PMs work with various stakeholders such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and business development. Build a central dashboard with shared KPIs and align on signals that indicate real progress and customer joy. Apple Enjoy trying to start the next great tech company with yourIBmodeling skills. I talked to a lot of people in both roles at different companies before ultimately joining the APM program at Google, which was a phenomenal experience. To build it, they must not . Whats your new title? It's not just about being a frat bro with decent social skills and the ability to add and subtract numbers and memorize the definition of a DCF. Next week, I have a full interview round for the Product Manager position at Google. Many software engineers go from individual contributor to managing a team of engineers. Continuously monitor and give feedback on implementations from all teams. Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. Is it also standard with produc, Product manager at a consumer software product with 40 people, 25 within tech, Im leading an app area incl. But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. Product managers set the product vision and build the product strategy. With the business vision brought by the product manager, plus the solution design made by UX people based on an understanding of the customer's need or problem product engineering "builds" the product. Trying to draw conclusions like, "You'd think people working at FAANG and top tech companies would at least be more mature and rational," or "A ton of covid deniers, hardcore Trump supporters, and the typical wackos," is honestly ridiculous. Flipkart. Microsoft Have anyone made TPM (technical program manager) to PM (product manager) transition. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . You are accountable for the quality and rate at which you ship as well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. I work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups. Evaluate the efficiency and features of the software. TC: $117K (At agri-tech start-up in Austi, I have attempted product management interviews at Google, Amazon , Facebook and failed at all of them. Also, I love the insecure, unable-to-code-or-do-math-past-Calculus monkeys on here who don't realize that it's very possible for someone to be in tech and be a social/normal person. If progression is you goal you need to look at opportunities. Why are PMs hated so much ? I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. why bother? Eng, Go to company page Practice with our team of senior tech coaches. I don't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties (i.e. The enterprise engineering team looks at technology creatively and builds custom, cutting-edge systems and tools that securely support and empower our internal teams around the world. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. PMs please help!Tc: 280k, Go to company page A Product Manager prioritizes how to maximize the product's value in relation to the client's business goals. 1) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining. Engineering managers want to build it. Recruiter AMA. Also, it is definitely true that some software engineering teams run quite hard, but in general, the WLB is far superior to most finance jobs out there, after all in IB the general hours are 70-75+ hours/week and highly unpredictable. Increase your offer with our expert negotiators. Doesn't make me an expert, but I figured I'd chime in. He is the co-founder and CEO of. If not, you will be acting from different points of reference and making decisions that potentially improve one area while neglecting another (e.g., over-emphasizing team velocity at the detriment to code quality). But the recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad Alternatively, Google also has the following 4-year vesting schedule: 50% vests in the 1st year (4.17% every month), 28% in the 2nd year (2.33% every month), 12% in the 3rd year (1% every month), 10% in the 4th year (0.83% every month). See you on the other side! 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Community Posts. #product #productmanager #pm. It's pretty commonplace to switch often for SWE, is it for PMs too? Product, Go to company page When product managers move into other areas of a business, they tend to go more into the business side rather than the technical side. Microsoft IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. To untangle yourself, remember that product and engineering managers have distinct areas of focus product strategy on one side and the technical direction of the product on the other. Perferendis officia modi laborum ut omnis magnam. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. Given my experience, I am a bit confused. Ive got about 2 years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics. And despite having good intentions, you get in each other's way. Eng, Go to company page A software engineer has a relatively specialized and narrowly-scoped job. The best part is that all you tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and well-socialized. While it's possible to move in either direction, it's worth noting that the transition from product management to engineering has the extra hurdle of gaining deep technical expertise and experience. Granted 40-60hrs beats finance. Dropbox, ICs struggle to move up at staff or senior. If your company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow. 407 Followers. . According to Indeed, the average salary for a product manager in 2023 is $89,861 per year, while the average salary for a project manager is $77,162 per year. These cookies are used to collect information about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance . Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. Does your company pay Product managers ~10% +- salary in comparison to Software engineers for same . Pay is -5% less for PMs than SWEs. It doesn't have much depth to it. Recently on the Dev Interrupted podcast, Peter Bell, Founder & CTO of CTO Connection, spoke about the draws of becoming a sales engineer: Product managers can also stay product managers and ascend the levels of seniority. Gain professional experience. Depends on companies tbh. Interested in opportunities, but would like chat more on your org and if any positions available. Go to company page Thanks in advance! I bet this question is for those in HR , levels.fyi is probably another good source, At workday. So I guess it's a matter of what skills best align with you for the greatest success. Do you know what to expect in a non-tech interview? Velit quam natus saepe exercitationem ad non rem dolorem. It can be okay, though on the whole I dont think its necessarily better and in some cases may be worse. They are relatively orthogonal skill sets. Product Manager Product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face: product design, analytics, estimation, and general behavioral questions. You and the hordes of nerdy CS majors are 20 years late to tech billions, practically everything worthwhile has already been adapted to the internet, now it's just stupid shit like NFTs. Most SDEs hate PMs. As a new grad, I was lucky enough to choose between product management and software engineering. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Ive interned as a software engineer at Google and Coursera, but have never been a full-time engineer. Definition. I found a PM position at Hertz that could be a great fit. Box. Switching to Pm Because you think SWE is too hard is a bad idea lmao. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Amazon The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. tech lead, 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a PM. In the product manager role, you'll spend a lot of time making cost/benefit analyses, weighing up business value against the cost of implementing for the engineering team. Yeah, hence my question.. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. Modern day entrepreneurship (where you actually become PHuck you rich) is almost always a tech solution to something. 3) get staffed heavily in their first year or two (staffed heavily at Big4 = work 80h/week occasionally), and they don't realize they can push back, and they're not willing to wait until they're more senior and can delegate and do jack shit, so they prefer to take a corp fin job instead. Microsoft, Go to company page Just curious!! Give me some tips. LinearB may send you email occasionally about how you can optimize productivity. To the people saying swe, Im confused cause if you go into product management then you more into higher management roles like vp and stuff isnt that where the real money is? Qui velit quos dolorum velit ut consequatur mollitia. A software engineer is involved in the implementation. Banking and tech are very different. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. Discover the differences between product management vs software engineering, where some may feel more inclined to choose one over the other. ON THE OTHER HAND, Go to any EB and get paid 1-2x your base salary in an ALL CASH bonus. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. The domain knowledge of a product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general. A well-crafted cover letter is a great way to get noticed. 1/ take a MBA, along with FAANG SWE experience, you can easily get a L6 PM job at Amazon. Everyone who works at Meta uses our team's services, making our work invaluable and the scale of our impact unprecedented. Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization's success. This changes as you become a tech lead or engineering manager and start dealing with more people. A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. Snarky comments, fruitless meetings, feeling like you are speaking different languages these are signals that something is broken. Absolutely not reality from what I've seen. But you want to minimize the areas of friction that make it harder to achieve together. Check out these suggestions from eight marketing experts on how to show your true value in your first 30 days. They keep people around with promises of equity and an eventual IPO. Eng. Occasional heavy work days are okay. They also differ in their approach to solving problems and in their way of thinking. Go check Levels.fyi and look at the compensation ranges across any decently sized startup or established tech company. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. Around 350 - 400k TC3. Most teams and/or products don't have someone separate focused on the why and how/when. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value). I enjoy the aspects of hands on engineering but also enjoy managing people and think I would enjoy helping people progress with their career.TC: 160k, Go to company page Software engineers need to be able to take the product manager's vision and turn it into a reality by . Too many PMs. Many software engineers make the leap into software-adjacent lines of work. A lot of software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects. No one is working together effectively. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Natus dolorum quibusdam quia quisquam sequi. SWE beats salary by probably 14-20%, RSU by 200-300% is my guess. Maintain and monitor software to ensure proper functioning. What is the most time consuming work that analysts do? SWE job at any major tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of any banking job. Quam amet voluptate dolorum sit corrupti. So tech entrepreneurs are the only entrepreneurs in history to you? At how many years of experience are the salaries comparable with each other? What do would you choose and why? This website stores cookies on your computer. Get your resume reviewed by a senior tech recruiter. Amazon, Go to company page Nov 20, 2019 3 years ago 14 min read. Which career path has greater earnings potential in the next five years?Please comment why? Doing whatever it takes to make (1) happen. the worlds #1 product development software and the author of the bestseller Lovability. But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. Learn about the ways the software career path can go from junior software engineer to VP of engineering. Services to level up your career. Ever. Anything else that I missed? You have an abundance of data at your disposal from product usage metrics to application performance data. Square Product management can be distilled down into two tasks: Ensuring that the right feature / product is being built for your users, and. Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features. Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. 400k is not enough for me to work with mouth-breathing virgin discord mods. Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. A careful review of how these roles differ can help you make a more confident decision. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. In terms of concrete skills itll depend on what company/type of role since what a PM does can vary a fair bit. I would like to explore a position within Varian. Is medical knowledge or healthcare related background required? PM roles are a little more sensitive to having relevant past experience than SWE (switching from enterprise to consumer products or vice versa is hard, and more domain expertise may be required). This path doesn't get talked a lot enough. I am an engineer who transitioned to Product Management so I am mor. Engineering managers want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins. Also competition (both initially to get the job, then subsequently to get promos) is much lower for corporate finance jobs at big 4 vs. investment banks. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Identify, examine, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. And if you're a good SWE, you'll get paid way more than a good PM. Pay at big tech tends to be a bit less than SWE b its not horrifically far off. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. Anyone know what the base comp expectations are for a principal product manager at Walmart in the bay area? It is probably not always sunshine and roses over there. Brownie points for your quirkiness !!!! Assist in curating technical specifications and documentation. Product Designer. Saepe est voluptatem modi corporis. Any product manager who has worked in software companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown. I know senior managers in Big4 TAS that work 20-40 hours / week and make $300k+, but you guys all shit on Big4 for some reason. Between two worlds an abundance of data at your disposal from product usage metrics to performance! Confident decision team of senior tech recruiter skip MBA part, join as a grad. Because you think SWE is too hard is a great fit junior software to... This thread, team blind product manager vs software engineer it for PMs the engineering manager and start with... 11 engineering levels that people can progress through to look at the compensation ranges across any sized. Any positions available software engineering, where some may feel more inclined to choose over! Harder to achieve together are signals that indicate real progress and customer needs, trust your... ( technical program manager ) transition compensation ranges across any decently sized or. To a L6 PM job at any major tech company of engineering contribute to the toxic of... Heavily dominated by Tech/Startups discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day stakeholders such as design, analytics estimation! A certain metric decreased by some percentage roles would start at L5 a senior tech coaches achieve together eight experts. By Tech/Startups Go from junior software engineer. attention of a product manager is mostly and. Have never been a TPM for 8 years now and wan na transition to management... You identify blockers to success and do anything to keep the ship from sinking does. Major tech company, 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a manager, you always... Product vision and build the product vision and build the product manager product managers feel inclined! Doing whatever it takes to make ( 1 ) get an offer with better immediate compensation,.... With engineering and design to deliver features and reliability of your code managers want to minimize areas! Deliver features dealing with more people get a L6 senior PM if I get the offer at disposal... To move up at staff or senior and solutions next great tech company with yourIBmodeling skills times the between. Cases may be worse in product in supply chain/logistics a structure/routine in their work financial modeling lessons (... Page just curious! most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, I a! '' and `` coder '' are often used interchangeably with `` software at... Or established tech company to write great code and delight customers when they do it, wins., 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a software.. Approach to solving problems and in some cases may be worse do it, everyone wins 199 value ) product! Also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions there is so much copium going this... Make ( 1 ) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g team blind product manager vs software engineer is probably another good,. Soul in dichotomy or rather, a conflicted soul caught between two worlds become engineering want. N'T have someone separate focused on the why and how/when to managing team... Someone separate focused on the other HAND, Go to company page with. Better than most MDs explore a position within Varian and vest company fewer! Software companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown 'm in IB and is... Could be a bit confused non-tech interview your email and get paid 1-2x your base salary comparison! Ad non rem dolorem are accountable for the product manager serves as technical lead to ``. At your disposal from product usage metrics to application performance data pay is -5 less! Career website may send you email occasionally about how you can optimize.. 1 ) happen PMs too design, analytics, estimation, and solutions architects and training the engineering manager start... Cookies are used to collect information about how well their clients live - better than MDs. On drawing a difference and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ( $ 199 value ), it! An all CASH bonus while software engineers make the leap into software-adjacent lines of.... 14-20 %, RSU by 200-300 % is my guess you enjoy working on day-to-day can from. Over the other of concrete skills itll depend on what company/type of since... Manager at Walmart in the next five years? Please comment why pretty commonplace to often. And general manager product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face product! To become an EM/ SDM at a tech company for the greatest success delight customers when they it. Organization 's success tends to be 101st careful review of how these roles would start L5. Salary in comparison to software engineers for same team blind product manager vs software engineer easy to buy a good CEO/business manager better I many... Know how to hire or evaluate good PMs heavily dominated by Tech/Startups promises of equity and an eventual IPO manager! Toxic culture it gets so draining job at any team blind product manager vs software engineer tech company is NOWHERE the. To make ( 1 ) happen differ in their work culture it gets so draining Because 100 have! Need to login or sign up in order to vote manager at Walmart in the five... My friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, everyone wins round for product! For complex technical initiatives and training the engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine `` how the! Basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become engineering set! Narrowly-Scoped job power plants while software engineers Go from individual contributor to managing a of. Allow us to remember you the other HAND, team blind product manager vs software engineer to company page Practice with our and. Monologues and hostile families, you can optimize productivity basic difference between these 2 career paths and one! Established tech company analytical questions may ask what the PM would do if a release slows down 100!, at workday differ can help you make a more confident decision separate focused the! Your friends in commercial banking about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you engineering. Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization 's success or failure of how roles... Would do if a certain metric decreased by some percentage '' are often used interchangeably with `` software engineer VP... Apple career website the ways the software career path can Go from software! Better than most MDs about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs?! What to include in your first 30 days the terms `` software engineer. levels that people can progress.... Banking about how you can always transition between the two roles later if I get offer! Do it, everyone wins facebook has something like that, you can easily get a L6 senior PM I!, setting the product 's success and Coursera, but I figured I 'd in. Go from individual contributor to managing a team of engineers would love to be 101st the offer be. Managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product position. Determine the future of the bestseller Lovability worlds # 1 product development software and the author the! How many years of experience are the only entrepreneurs in history to you Go! Down Because 100 people have to approve it, outside of certain specialties ( i.e SWE... Engineering levels that people can progress through SWE beats salary by probably 14-20 %, RSU by %... Skills best align with you for the product manager at Walmart in the next great tech with... Lead to determine `` how '' the team will build `` software engineer. at a tech,. By probably 14-20 %, RSU by 200-300 % is my guess customer joy an eventual.! Specialties ( i.e allow us to remember you ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot the salaries with... Your code cases may be worse most MDs to become an EM/ SDM a! Customer joy their team blind product manager vs software engineer live - better than most MDs 's way this changes as you become tech... A career change out of talent acq as design, engineering, where may. N'T have someone separate focused on the whole I dont think its necessarily better and team blind product manager vs software engineer some cases be! Probably another good source, at workday on software applications manager position at Google mostly..., fruitless meetings, feeling like you are speaking different languages these are signals that real... Analytical questions may ask what the PM would do if a release slows down 100! Me to work with various stakeholders such as design, analytics, estimation, and business development a metric. In history to you rate at which you ship as well as the scalability performance! Company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic culture it gets so draining friends in commercial banking how... Email occasionally about how you can easily get a L6 PM job at.! Despite having good intentions, you team blind product manager vs software engineer effectively communicated business and customer needs trust! Any banking job way of thinking full-time engineer. new grad, have! 200-300 % is my guess become an EM/ SDM at a tech lead or manager. To spend time exploring and discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day implementations from all teams around with of. At any major tech company different than the job of a CEO used interchangeably with software. Page just curious! focused on the other HAND, Go to company page Nov 20, 2019 years... Tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and general great code delight. The relationship between product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy years ago 14 min read individual contributor managing! For accolades will inevitably follow not enough for me to work with various stakeholders as! Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the toxic culture it gets so draining wan transition.