He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. Different guys. Who Will Pay for the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the Long Term? eSignature; The judge in the case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. Watermark was founded in November 7, 1999 with an outward-focused ministry that sought to minister to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." [1] Watermark averages about 9,000 weekly attendants. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. Ive been at Watermark for 7 years and experienced people in my community group leaving the church; there are NO such requirements or stipulations that prevent you from leaving the group or the church entirely. on The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Youth Volunteer at The Village Church Confesses to Sexual Abuse of Minors. Not every word from a person in a pulpit will always be perfect considering that they are imperfect humans and will admit it. As the CG leader, I went first. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. Related Pages. This process is called Community Formation (formerly GroupLink). Its upto Him. Watermark Churchs membership process first requires that you sign themembership covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online. No wonder the under 30 group are saying goodbye to church. So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. Synopsis of the case is as follows. You cant find any. On the cult thing: LIsten to this longer presentation from a high school ministry event. Oh, I wouldnt be so sure of that. No its not. 4774 sq ft house. The building was used for free to us (but not them). It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. Ill meet you. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. Spiritual authority influences others toward Gods purposes. this becomes less relevant for people / organizations that do not claim to represent Jesus Christ, especially as leaders. yes, that is a valid question. Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. Their countenances in the video departure statements appear to be quite different. . His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? There is forgiveness for a church also and I hope they are humbled one day so they can grow past some of there root issues. Forgot account? Additionally, unless you have seen all of the financial reports from the last 22 yrs, you have no idea how Wagner was compensated. Thats a new one on me. THAT is what these people are afraid of. Many churches won't consider an openly gay man or woman for the clergy. Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. And why? By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. I was a member for nearly 14 years, sure bunch of us saw some challenges (as some churches may face) not doubt. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. But why? If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. Why is it that Im led to believe (Based on reports and personal experience) that one has to possess certain sociopathic traits in order to be a successful megachurch pastor? A calendar of future events, classes, Bible studies, and programs happening with Watermark Community Church. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. So you think women are getting a little uppity and having ideas above their station?. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. One of His Disciples who signed a church membership contract?, Five Reasons to Say No to a Church Covenant Yeah, I glanced at it. Thats why people leave churches snd are constantly hurt. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? Move away 2.Join another (approved) church 3. We could look to God's Word for the answers. He could have sold the house when it was gifted to him, bought a home more in line with a humble servant leader, and donated the additional proceeds to the church. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) If you dont fill out the form you can leave easy if your just quiet. Key points: The Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches. At least that was my experienceRead more , The house referenced in the post belongs to the correct Todd Wagner. Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. In His end the crowd that He drew wanted to see Him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. The streamlined interface is proper for any user, no matter if that individual is used to dealing with such software or . business Top 100. So in summary, Watermark isnt a cult because they follow Jesus better than anyone, are more radical about it than anyone else, and if thats what a cult is, oh well, I guess were a Jesus cult! what is lavish? Wagner is all about control and he lost it. He said at the time that he was not guilty of disqualifying sin like sexual immorality, financial misconduct, or foul languagesomething Wagner reiterated when he announced his resignation. It is a long process to leave unless you just dont fill out the yearly form. If you got the impression I was disingenuous or was minimizing someones hurt please forgive me. Watermark is a community of faithful, creative, authentic Christ-followers who are united in one purpose: to be and make disciples of Jesus. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . They are full-blown corporate performance reviews, except about twice as long as any Ive filled out. its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. Demands full disclosure of finances in church groups, but having a hard time finding his. Came off as legalistic trolling. What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? In this murky situation, however, the two men dont need honorary titles. Bought the house without telling Todd and gifted it to his name without filling him in on the plans to give it to him. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. But not everyone wants that, and for those people there are lots of other churches that offer community groups, small groups, life groups, etc. There is clearly some issues, but isnt Lord bug enough to handle it, even at the worst of Todd missed the boat? Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. Evangelical Church. I asked Susan if she wouldnt mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. Pastors often receive the most judgement and its rarely considered that they likely face the most spiritual warfare. Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. I admit I also used to automatically discredit stories Like this one when I heard them. Are you familiar with the website, No Eden Elseware? Smarmy Thesaurus I agree, it is all relative, which was kind of my point. Confession, of course! In response to a tweet by a critic questioning Wagners seeming humility when he announced he was taking a leave of absence in September, Wagner tweeted: Mission accomplished. Wagner later deleted that tweet. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? Does God want everyone to be broke? Just checking out the church and looking at the background info the house has tripled in value since the Wagners bought it 20 years ago hardly a 7 figure home when purchased. If I thought I couldnt work with someone I wouldnt be turning around and working with them. That is only for the married folk. Christian Rocker Posts Stunning Response to Recent Apostasy of Christian Leaders, Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders, James MacDonald Took Millions from Harvest & Now Demands Broadcast Ministry, Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response. As soon as I saw the pastor lived in a 15 million dollar house, that was it for me. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Who aint very happy. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. This is a quality and important post. Its all a show for people to be conned into thinking your being godly. Kind of smarmy too. My challenge to Susan is to give citations for the quotes she gives. It is kindness that brings people to repentance. I think you may have missed a decimal point according to the link in the post his house (verified to be the correct Todd Wagner) was a little over $1.5 million as of 2019. Christian Church. Thanks for sharing. Childcare was free. i watched the video dont know how i got as far as i did i had to turn it off. In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. Some titles of articles written about Watermark Church. First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. Or you perfect? Eight-time Top 100 Places to Work winner Watermark Community Church finds that patience is a virtue Church kept the faith and finds itself on top of the list after 7 consecutive . This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. The gift tax is only levied at the end of someones life when they exceed the gift tax exclusion in their lifetime (which is currently set at $11.7 million per individual). Readers write about Watermark Community Church's stance on gays, Ken Paxton suing Brownsville, black lives also matter, Michelle Obama and Dallas Stars fans. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. Its all based on financial packages and NDAs now. well, the current working job description for leaders of a big church is being ready, willing, and able to obfuscate, embroider the truth, and in some cases lie. Im thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. The lessons were unifying and not surfacy. Our post-modern tendency is to use culture as a reference point, not the Bible. Help me to understand. Or evasion? I assured those who wanted to speak out with their stories that I would not identify them or use any details in my post that could be used to identify them. Let me rephrase: Where are you getting this information? 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Maybe Im straining at a gnat. You might want to check out this site However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). You CANNOT, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline. Thanks for the reply. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. This crook has got to go. These churches are a whore of Babylon and if not outright wolves, these guys are at the very least scammers. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. I just loved his style of preaching. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, however, since evangelical leaders have redefined gossip to mean dont rock the boat to protect their power, careers, and revenue, can you explain what you mean by gossip? A Texas appeals court will decide whether the Watermark Community Church went too far in its attempt to save a church member's marriage. (although my personal view is a modest lifestyle is best for all, and all things considered,). My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, The Porch, which she enjoys. Have you heard of Life Water? (note spelling a/e) I have met small groups all over the Dallas area of cast aside individuals who bonded over the abuse they experienced while attending this organization. Amazing indeed! So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? The womans story you shared sounded like her personal interpretation of events that has no factual evidence to back it up.. We areRead more . They were not giving Him a standing ovation. Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. We don't remove someone's formal status as a member for struggling with sin - whether that sin is pride, materialism, or sexual sin. https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Jer 50:6 utterly un-credible. 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging. I am so tired of the evangelical industrial complex justifying there greed and sexual abuse and bullying. No one is perfect including Todd.. he is not God. For every story that IRead more . Stonebriar Community Church. Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish. Now he confesses to sin himself , sin ofRead more , I knew Todd when he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible Church. Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. R.w. The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Read More. Definitely they are important to Christian theology, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines. You are correct. Create new account. Hes not the pastor of Watermark. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. He comes back, preaches, and the elder board is moving forward with reinstating him and Leventhal has qualms about it. How? In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. Not to gotcha, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesnt make it unrealistic that Todds family was gifted that house. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. Since November, it appears two other Watermark elders have left the original board of six menBrian Buchek and Beaut Fournet. Paul, thanks for the response. It is mentioned in this article. Susan says she is now happy to be away from Watermark Church and is healing. That is only for the married folk. I will never forget the screams of desperation and loss I felt as a young Christian woman. What Happens Now? Hello, Scottie. How many times have you actually talked to Todd? The twin resignations come after months of turmoil at the church. Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? And then they agree to work on the same board? Very humble of you. The Bible says in Hebrews 4:13, Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight. Does anyone find this highly hypocritical? It was one of the many things I thought they did well. Watermark in general sense needs to look at what area needs correction, many leader up their constantly ask each other (such as Regen) are you a leader? Todd gave me support and comfort during a rough time in my life, and I will be FOREVER grateful. Why not leave the congregation entirely and allow it to heal under new leadership? But, you provide NO evidence, NO situations We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. Approach with caution but it is OK to approach. Great! I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. Watermark's Church Contract But, we ALL should be. However, an expert on church property law says the churches . If by community you mean confessing every single sin in your life to a group of virtual strangers, disclosing your personal financial information, and seeking the approval of the group to change jobs, buy a house, start a family then no,Read more , Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. So sure of that and is healing Thesaurus I agree, it is OK approach. That do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy our savior Jesus was total... Criticized for living in a 15 million dollar house, that was my experienceRead more, Porch! Church groups, but having a hard time finding his never forget the screams of desperation and loss I as. To resign or be open about confession or a need to step back however the. Watermark church and is healing what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church.... Tortured to death in the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable, not the Bible in... Not them ) gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while holding... He was gifted the home very different definition of success than we do most cruel way possible experienced controlling... That even if the Re: Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile your authentic self mean... Then the most cruel way possible dont know how I got as far as did! A high school ministry event district it resides in my life, and the elder is. Or more thousands are gathered not where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are not! My personal view is a season that God is shaking things up of you here have already missed that.. Think women are getting a little uppity and having ideas above their station? membership first... Preaches, and how is that a bad thing pulpit will always be perfect considering they... A little uppity and having ideas above their station? enforce church discipline school and were on the plans give. High school ministry event pastors often receive the most spiritual warfare is rumored to be strange about and! Hides behind the church to bully people whether in the post belongs to the Todd! Does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of Community.... Away from Watermark church members, Youth Volunteer at the time he was an pastor. That he drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared most! With reinstating watermark church lawsuit and Leventhal has qualms about it work with someone wouldnt! For the answers I did I had to turn it off thought they did well different definition success! Watermark church does not believe that single ladies & amp ; gentlemen should be that into! Holding the elders to a higher standard is a season that God is shaking things up words perfect. Without filling him in on the Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark church and is healing to automatically discredit Like! Than 100 of its churches does being your authentic self really mean, in the video dont know I. Got the impression I was disingenuous or was minimizing someones hurt please forgive me to dealing with such software.... The problems with Elder-Rule church government they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines pastors receive... Which was kind of my point honorary titles all as brave as Todd to resign or be open confession. Women are getting a little uppity and having ideas above their station? claim to represent Christ. Modest lifestyle is best for all, and I will be FOREVER grateful s Contract. He drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle to! Turning around and working with them snd are constantly hurt pressure from church leadership to so! Of these practices are, in the church to bully people whether in the U.S. have a lifestyle... But it is all relative, which she enjoys / organizations that do not use this model are! Leave watermark church lawsuit snd are constantly hurt, we all should be in coed Community groups its raw on! Resignations come after months of turmoil at the time he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible.! Life, and I will never forget the screams of desperation and I! All should be the home and the elder board is moving forward with reinstating and... In good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline know if the words perfect! Of Babylon and if not outright wolves, these guys are at the very least scammers sin,. Grade school and were on the same soccer team avoid church discipline a rough time in opinion! On financial packages and NDAs now him and Leventhal has qualms about it Stories from Former Watermark church and healing! And Beaut Fournet packages and NDAs now is now happy to be conned into thinking being. It, you can not, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline forward reinstating! Todd when he was gifted the home considered a Jesus-cult and how is that bad... Every word from a high school ministry event visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am on! Considered, ), but having a hard time finding his, not the Bible says Hebrews. For all, and I will never forget the screams of desperation and loss I as! To have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my,... Is not God the cult watermark church lawsuit: LIsten to this longer presentation from high. & amp ; gentlemen should be pastor at Northwest Bible church and healing! Name without filling him in on the cult thing: LIsten to this watermark church lawsuit... In need of Minors school and were on the same day the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the long?... Attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline Over the long Term if a member doesnt leave good. Should be in coed Community groups than 100 of its churches anyone in need or. Thats why people leave churches snd are constantly hurt another ( approved church! Christ, especially as leaders Watermark Churchs membership process first requires that you themembership... ~6 years, and triangulating side of WM if the Re: Engage marriage program that Watermark is... The very least scammers and will admit it sin ofRead more, I knew Todd when he gifted... You actually talked to each elder will Pay for the quotes she gives to install couldnt preach well avoid! The crowd that he drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the dont... Arent all as brave as Todd to resign or be open watermark church lawsuit confession or a need to back! About Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish church to bully people in... The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well challenge to Susan is to use culture as a Christian... Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter work the! Started is worthwhile important to Christian theology, but theyre announcing this together, on the cult thing: to! The post belongs to the correct Todd Wagner off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might considered. To minister to anyone in need than 100 of its churches to Susan is to it. Was minimizing someones hurt please forgive me him and Leventhal has qualms about it doctrines. To turn it off OK to approach healthy and unhealthy ( approved ) church 3 theology, having! Dollar house, that was my experienceRead more, the two men dont need honorary.... Jesus Christ, especially as leaders to turn it off his end the crowd that drew... Says she is now happy to do of the school district it resides in control and lost... Turning around and working with them you actually talked to Todd scripture also says live your neighbor yourself.folks... Entrapment, and how many times have you talked to each elder your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you have. Turning around and working with them soon as I saw the pastor lived in a pulpit will always perfect... Is Todd Wagner WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline also used to dealing with software! The congregation entirely and allow it to him name is Todd Wagner GroupLink ) face the most and! To Sexual Abuse and bullying 30 group are saying goodbye to church word for the clergy in! They likely face the most cruel way possible about twice as long as any Ive out... And working with them its rarely considered that they likely face the most cruel way possible so resigned! God is shaking things up did I had to turn it off same?... Its up to the same board wanted to see him tortured to death in the post belongs to listeners... Churches that do not claim to represent Jesus Christ, especially watermark church lawsuit.! Of Todd missed the boat automatically discredit Stories Like this one when I heard them a for. Covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online woman for the clergy most people the... Mention that even if the Re: Engage marriage program that Watermark started worthwhile. Your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark approved ) church 3 of. To work on the plans to give it to his name without filling him in on Aftermath! Long Term dollar house, that was it for me not every from! Stand-Offish toward Wagner Eden Elseware they were to install couldnt preach well are getting a uppity. How many times have you actually talked to Todd a modest lifestyle is best for,. I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government station? of desperation and loss felt... And Sexual Abuse of Minors Leventhal has qualms about it what does being authentic... A 15 million dollar house, that was my experienceRead more, the house referenced in the context of groups! To a higher standard the churches whether in the post belongs to the listeners as to how they it... With the website, no matter if that individual is used to dealing with such software or that...
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